Holder To Trump: 'Exactly When Did You Think America Was Great?' | The Beat With Ari Melber | MSNBC
>>> NOW WE TURN TO MY EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH FORMER ATTORNEY
INTERVIEW WITH FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC HOLDER.
GENERAL ERIC HOLDER. YOU HAVE WORKED IN AND OUT OF
YOU HAVE WORKED IN AND OUT OF OFFICE ON THE ISSUES OF RACISM,
OFFICE ON THE ISSUES OF RACISM, CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND REFORM.
CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND REFORM. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE
WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE AS YOU HAVE WITH MANY PEOPLE.
AS YOU HAVE WITH MANY PEOPLE. LET'S LOOK AT SOMETHING
LET'S LOOK AT SOMETHING UNDERSTAND TO ME IN OUR 2014
UNDERSTAND TO ME IN OUR 2014 INTERVIEW ABOUT MISTAKES IN THAT
INTERVIEW ABOUT MISTAKES IN THAT FIELD.
FIELD. TAKE A LOOK.
TAKE A LOOK. >> WE ERRED ON THE WAR IN DRUGS
>> WE ERRED ON THE WAR IN DRUGS IN GOING TOO FAR WITH REGARD FOR
IN GOING TOO FAR WITH REGARD FOR SOME OF THE SENTENCES.
SOME OF THE SENTENCES. IT IS TIME TO PULL BACK JUST A
IT IS TIME TO PULL BACK JUST A BIT.
BIT. WE NEED TO HAVE PROPORTIONATE
WE NEED TO HAVE PROPORTIONATE PENALTIES.
PENALTIES. AND THE ABILITY FOR RECOGNITION
AND THE ABILITY FOR RECOGNITION THAT YOU CAN MAKE A MISTAKE,
THAT YOU CAN MAKE A MISTAKE, REHABILITATE YOURSELF AND COME
REHABILITATE YOURSELF AND COME BACK AND BE A PRODUCTIVE
BACK AND BE A PRODUCTIVE CITIZEN.
CITIZEN. >> YOU CALL IT SMART ON CRIME.
>> YOU CALL IT SMART ON CRIME. WE'RE FIVE YEARS LATER.
WE'RE FIVE YEARS LATER. HOW FAR ALONG DO YOU THINK
HOW FAR ALONG DO YOU THINK AMERICA IS ON THOSE REFORMS?
AMERICA IS ON THOSE REFORMS? HALFWAY, LESS THAN HALFWAY?
HALFWAY, LESS THAN HALFWAY? >> WELL, I'D SAY THAT WE SHOULD
>> WELL, I'D SAY THAT WE SHOULD BE IN A MUCH -- WE SHOULD BE
BE IN A MUCH -- WE SHOULD BE FURTHER ALONG THAN WE ACTUALLY
FURTHER ALONG THAN WE ACTUALLY ARE.
ARE. THE REALTY IS THAT MANY
THE REALTY IS THAT MANY REFORMS THAT I PUT IN PLACE WERE
REFORMS THAT I PUT IN PLACE WERE DISMANTLED BY JEFF SESSIONS.
DISMANTLED BY JEFF SESSIONS. AND THAT HAS PUT A REAL
AND THAT HAS PUT A REAL IMPEDIMENT TO THE PROGRESS THAT
IMPEDIMENT TO THE PROGRESS THAT WE SHOULD HAVE MADE.
WE SHOULD HAVE MADE. THE FIRST STEP HAS CERTAINLY
THE FIRST STEP HAS CERTAINLY BEEN PASSED.
BEEN PASSED. DOESN'T GO NEARLY AS FAR AS WHAT
DOESN'T GO NEARLY AS FAR AS WHAT WE DID IN THE OBAMA
WE DID IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.
ADMINISTRATION. >> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING YOU
>> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING YOU MAY NOT ANSWER?
MAY NOT ANSWER? I WONDER WHETHER YOU LOOK AT
I WONDER WHETHER YOU LOOK AT THAT AND YOU THINK SIX YEARS YOU
THAT AND YOU THINK SIX YEARS YOU WERE POUNDING THE PAVEMENT TO
WERE POUNDING THE PAVEMENT TO TRY TO GET BUYIPARTISAN SOLUTION
TRY TO GET BUYIPARTISAN SOLUTION HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT IT
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT IT HAPPENING NOW?
HAPPENING NOW? >> IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE IT
>> IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE IT WAS A BIPARTISAN ISSUE.
WAS A BIPARTISAN ISSUE. I REMEMBER HAVING A MEETING WITH
I REMEMBER HAVING A MEETING WITH MY CONFERENCE ROOM WHERE I HAD
MY CONFERENCE ROOM WHERE I HAD REPRESENTATIVES OF THE KOCH
REPRESENTATIVES OF THE KOCH BROTHERS, TEA PARTY AND CENTER
BROTHERS, TEA PARTY AND CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS AND
FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS AND EVERYTHING WAS ON THE SAME PAGE.
EVERYTHING WAS ON THE SAME PAGE. AND WE COULDN'T GET CONGRESS TO
AND WE COULDN'T GET CONGRESS TO DO THAT WHICH WAS -- WHICH THEY
DO THAT WHICH WAS -- WHICH THEY HAVE THOUSAND DOWN AT LEAST IN
HAVE THOUSAND DOWN AT LEAST IN PART.
PART. >> IS THAT BECAUSE THE
>> IS THAT BECAUSE THE REPUBLICANS JUST DIDN'T WANT YOU
REPUBLICANS JUST DIDN'T WANT YOU TO SUCCEED ON THAT?
TO SUCCEED ON THAT? >> A COUPLE THINGS.
>> A COUPLE THINGS. I THINK IT WAS THAT.
I THINK IT WAS THAT. THEY DIDN'T WANT BOMB ORNTIDN'T
THEY DIDN'T WANT BOMB ORNTIDN'T TO TUCK SEEDSUCCEED.
TO TUCK SEEDSUCCEED. AND THEY WANTED TO SAY DEMOCRATS
AND THEY WANTED TO SAY DEMOCRATS WERE SOFT ON CRIME.
WERE SOFT ON CRIME. >> I WANT TO SHOW YOU THE
>> I WANT TO SHOW YOU THE FEDERAL INCARCERATION RATES
FEDERAL INCARCERATION RATES WHICH IS DROPPING AS YOU MAY
WHICH IS DROPPING AS YOU MAY KNOW DOWN IN 2016 TO A RATE OF
KNOW DOWN IN 2016 TO A RATE OF 860 FROM 1,000 PER 100,000
860 FROM 1,000 PER 100,000 ADULTS.
ADULTS. DOES THAT MEAN THERE IS LESS
DOES THAT MEAN THERE IS LESS PUNISHMENT BUT RACIAL INJUSTICES
PUNISHMENT BUT RACIAL INJUSTICES PERSIST?
PERSIST? >> IT MEANS THAT WE ARE BRINGING
>> IT MEANS THAT WE ARE BRINGING INCARCERATION DOWN AND MORE IN
INCARCERATION DOWN AND MORE IN LINE WITH THE REST OF THE
LINE WITH THE REST OF THE INDUSTRIALIZED WORLD.
INDUSTRIALIZED WORLD. 5% OF THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD
5% OF THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES AND
LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES AND 25% OF ALL THE PEOPLE
25% OF ALL THE PEOPLE INCARCERATED AROUND THE
INCARCERATED AROUND THE ARE INCARCERATED HERE IN THE
ARE INCARCERATED HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.
UNITED STATES. I THINK WE HAVE TO SEE WHETHER
I THINK WE HAVE TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT WE'RE MAKING PROGRESS ON
OR NOT WE'RE MAKING PROGRESS ON THE RACIAL FRONT.
THE RACIAL FRONT. THE RATE OF INCARCERATION IS
THE RATE OF INCARCERATION IS DOWN.
DOWN. I'D HAVE TO LOOK AT SOME
I'D HAVE TO LOOK AT SOME STATISTICS AND SEE WHETHER OR
STATISTICS AND SEE WHETHER OR NOT THAT IMBALANCE, THAT RACIAL
NOT THAT IMBALANCE, THAT RACIAL IMBALANCE THAT WE SAW CERTAINLY
IMBALANCE THAT WE SAW CERTAINLY IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM WHERE
IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM WHERE SIMILARLY SITUATED DEFENDANTS, A
SIMILARLY SITUATED DEFENDANTS, A BLACK SENTENCE WAS 20% LONGER.
BLACK SENTENCE WAS 20% LONGER. >> AND THE BAIL SYSTEM SEEMS TO
>> AND THE BAIL SYSTEM SEEMS TO PUNISH THE POOR AND MINORITIES
PUNISH THE POOR AND MINORITIES WHO ARE PRESUMED AS INNOCENT AS
WHO ARE PRESUMED AS INNOCENT AS ANYONE ELSE.
ANYONE ELSE. YOU KNOW THE STATS BUT I WANT TO
YOU KNOW THE STATS BUT I WANT TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE SEE
MAKE SURE PEOPLE SEE AFRICAN-AMERICANS MORE LIKELY TO
AFRICAN-AMERICANS MORE LIKELY TO HAVE TO PAY CASH BAIL.
HAVE TO PAY CASH BAIL. AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN DEFENDANTS
AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN DEFENDANTS TEND TO RECEIVE BHAL AMOUNTS
TEND TO RECEIVE BHAL AMOUNTS THAT ARE 10,000 GREATER THAN
THAT ARE 10,000 GREATER THAN WHITE DEFENDANTS.
WHITE DEFENDANTS. HOW CAN THAT STILL BE GOING ON
HOW CAN THAT STILL BE GOING ON IN AMERICA?
IN AMERICA? >> WELL, LET'S START FROM THE
>> WELL, LET'S START FROM THE BASE RACE IS STILL A PRIME
BASE RACE IS STILL A PRIME DETERMINANT IN THIS COUNTRY.
DETERMINANT IN THIS COUNTRY. WE'VE NOT GOTTEN TO THE PLACE
WE'VE NOT GOTTEN TO THE PLACE WHERE WE NEED TO BE WHEN IT
WHERE WE NEED TO BE WHEN IT COMES TO DEALING WITH ALL THINGS
COMES TO DEALING WITH ALL THINGS RACIAL.
RACIAL. BOBBY KENNEDY IN 1962 I BELIEVE
BOBBY KENNEDY IN 1962 I BELIEVE IT WAS HELD A CONFERENCE ON
IT WAS HELD A CONFERENCE ON DEALING WITH THE BAIL PROBLEM.
DEALING WITH THE BAIL PROBLEM. WE DID ONE 50 YEARS LATER, BAIL
WE DID ONE 50 YEARS LATER, BAIL WE HERE IN D.C. DETAIN ON
WE HERE IN D.C. DETAIN ON WHETHER YOU ARE A DANGER TO
WHETHER YOU ARE A DANGER TO COMMUNITY AND NOT LIKELY TO
COMMUNITY AND NOT LIKELY TO REAPPEAR FOR YOUR NEXT COURT
REAPPEAR FOR YOUR NEXT COURT APPEARANCE.
APPEARANCE. THAT SHOULD BE THE STANDARD.
THAT SHOULD BE THE STANDARD. NOT YOUR ECONOMIC ABILITY TO
NOT YOUR ECONOMIC ABILITY TO COME UP WITH A CASH BOOND.
COME UP WITH A CASH BOOND. >>
>> >> I'M THINKING ABOUT THE JUDGES
>> I'M THINKING ABOUT THE JUDGES WHO ASSESSED TO PAUL MANAFORT
WHO ASSESSED TO PAUL MANAFORT AND PEOPLE SAID ONE OF THE JUNES
AND PEOPLE SAID ONE OF THE JUNES WAS GOOD
WAS GOOD JUDGES WAS GOOD AND THE OTHER
JUDGES WAS GOOD AND THE OTHER WASN'T.
WASN'T. BUT BOTH ASSESSED HIM AS THIS
BUT BOTH ASSESSED HIM AS THIS GRANDFATHERLY FIGURE.
GRANDFATHERLY FIGURE. JUDGE JACKSON SAID THAT HE
JUDGE JACKSON SAID THAT HE DIDN'T SEEM LIKELY TO REOFFEND.
DIDN'T SEEM LIKELY TO REOFFEND. WHEN MR. MANAFORT HAD REOFFENDED
WHEN MR. MANAFORT HAD REOFFENDED AFTER HIS CHARGES.
AFTER HIS CHARGES. AND I THOUGHT WOULD ANY JUDGE --
AND I THOUGHT WOULD ANY JUDGE -- AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO SINGLE A
AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO SINGLE A JUDGE OUT.
JUDGE OUT. BUT WOULD THOSE JUDGES BE AS
BUT WOULD THOSE JUDGES BE AS LIKELY TO SAY THAT ABOUT A FIRST
LIKELY TO SAY THAT ABOUT A FIRST TIME YOUNG BLACK MALE OFFENDER?
TIME YOUNG BLACK MALE OFFENDER? >> I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT
>> I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE JUDGES IN PARTICULAR, BUT I
THE JUDGES IN PARTICULAR, BUT I DO WORRY THAT JUDGES ARE LIKE
DO WORRY THAT JUDGES ARE LIKE ALL OTHER AMERICANS, THEY CARRY
ALL OTHER AMERICANS, THEY CARRY WITH THEM IMPLICIT BIASES.
WITH THEM IMPLICIT BIASES. >> HOW DO YOU FIX IT?
>> HOW DO YOU FIX IT? >> YOU CERTAINLY HAVE TO HAVE
>> YOU CERTAINLY HAVE TO HAVE TRAINING.
TRAINING. YOU HAVE TO MAKE PEOPLE AWARE OF
YOU HAVE TO MAKE PEOPLE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT THEY DO CARRY
THE FACT THAT THEY DO CARRY THESE BIASES AND MAKE THEM
THESE BIASES AND MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU SEE AN
UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU SEE AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN DEFENDANT IN
AFRICAN-AMERICAN DEFENDANT IN FRONT OF YOU, THAT TRIGGERS
FRONT OF YOU, THAT TRIGGERS SOMETHING IN YOUR MIND AND THAT
SOMETHING IN YOUR MIND AND THAT WILL MAYBE TRIGGER SOMETHING
WILL MAYBE TRIGGER SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN SOMEBODY WHO
DIFFERENT THAN SOMEBODY WHO SHOWS UP IN A TIE AND YOU WOULD
SHOWS UP IN A TIE AND YOU WOULD MAYBE CUT THAT PERSON A BREAK
MAYBE CUT THAT PERSON A BREAK THAT YOU WOULDN'T OTHERWISE GIVE
THAT YOU WOULDN'T OTHERWISE GIVE TO A HISPANIC OR
TO A HISPANIC OR AFRICAN-AMERICAN DEFENDANT.
AFRICAN-AMERICAN DEFENDANT. PEOPLE HAVE TO BE AWARE OF THAT.
PEOPLE HAVE TO BE AWARE OF THAT. AND THEN THAT TRAINING HAS TO
AND THEN THAT TRAINING HAS TO CONTINUE.
CONTINUE. BUT THESE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS
BUT THESE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS THAT ALL OF US AS AMERICANS HAVE
THAT ALL OF US AS AMERICANS HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
TO DEAL WITH. WE ALL CARRY THIS RACIAL
WE ALL CARRY THIS RACIAL BAGGAGE.
BAGGAGE. THE YOUNGER GENERATION TO A
THE YOUNGER GENERATION TO A LESSER DEGREE, BUT IT IS STILL
LESSER DEGREE, BUT IT IS STILL THERE.
THERE. >> AND IN OUR LIMITED TIME, I
>> AND IN OUR LIMITED TIME, I WANT TO DO RESTRUCTURING.
WANT TO DO RESTRUCTURING. YOU ARE TAKING ALL OF THIS
YOU ARE TAKING ALL OF THIS EXPERIENCE AND FOCUSED ON
EXPERIENCE AND FOCUSED ON REDISTRICTING.
REDISTRICTING. WHY?
WHY? >> RESTWRIKTRICTING HAPPENS EVER
>> RESTWRIKTRICTING HAPPENS EVER YEARS.
YEARS. IF YOU CARE ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE
IF YOU CARE ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE
RIGHTS AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, IF YOU CARE ABOUT HEALTH
REFORM, IF YOU CARE ABOUT HEALTH CARE, IF YOU CARE ABOUT
CARE, IF YOU CARE ABOUT PROTECTING THE RIGHT TO VOTE,
PROTECTING THE RIGHT TO VOTE, STOPPING VOTER SUPPRESSION, ALL
STOPPING VOTER SUPPRESSION, ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE DEPENDENT ON
OF THOSE THINGS ARE DEPENDENT ON WHO IS IN OUR STATE
WHO IS IN OUR STATE LEGISLATURES.
LEGISLATURES. WE HAVE THESE GERRYMANDERED
WE HAVE THESE GERRYMANDERED STATE LENLGSZGISLATURES.
STATE LENLGSZGISLATURES. LOOK AT WISCONSIN AS AN EXAMPLE.
LOOK AT WISCONSIN AS AN EXAMPLE. THAT DOES A WHOLE VARIETY OF
THAT DOES A WHOLE VARIETY OF THINGS.
THINGS. TRIES TO SHORTEN THE NUMBER OF
TRIES TO SHORTEN THE NUMBER OF DAYS THAT PEOPLE CAN VOTE, TAKES
DAYS THAT PEOPLE CAN VOTE, TAKES CRAZY POSITIONS WHEN IT COMES TO
CRAZY POSITIONS WHEN IT COMES TO REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.
REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS. DOESN'T PASS SANE GUN SAFETY
DOESN'T PASS SANE GUN SAFETY MEASURES.
MEASURES. SO IF YOU CARE ABOUT THOSE
SO IF YOU CARE ABOUT THOSE INDIVIDUAL ISSUES, MY JOB IS TO
INDIVIDUAL ISSUES, MY JOB IS TO MAKE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THEY
MAKE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE DIRECTLY TIED TO
ARE DIRECTLY TIED TO REDISTRICTING.
REDISTRICTING. >> SO THIS IS BIGGER BECAUSE IT
>> SO THIS IS BIGGER BECAUSE IT IS UNDERNEATH ALL OF THEM.
IS UNDERNEATH ALL OF THEM. >> IT IS THE FOUNDATION FOR ALL
>> IT IS THE FOUNDATION FOR ALL OF THESE OTHER CONCERNS.
OF THESE OTHER CONCERNS. AND IT IS -- THIS WHOLE QUESTION
AND IT IS -- THIS WHOLE QUESTION OF MAKING SURE THAT EVERYBODY
OF MAKING SURE THAT EVERYBODY HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE AND
HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE AND THAT THEIR VOTE GETS COUNTED IN
THAT THEIR VOTE GETS COUNTED IN AN APPROPRIATE WAY, THAT IS THE
AN APPROPRIATE WAY, THAT IS THE CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE I BELIEVE OF
CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE I BELIEVE OF OUR TIME.
OUR TIME. >> AND THERE IS A LOT OF TALK
>> AND THERE IS A LOT OF TALK ABOUT AMERICA BEING A LEADER AS
ABOUT AMERICA BEING A LEADER AS A DEMOCRACY QUOTE/UNQUOTE IN THE
A DEMOCRACY QUOTE/UNQUOTE IN THE 1800s WHEN WOMEN AND
1800s WHEN WOMEN AND AFRICAN-AMERICANS KOOPTS VOTE.
AFRICAN-AMERICANS KOOPTS VOTE. >> AND I HEAR LET'S MAKE AMERICA
>> AND I HEAR LET'S MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN AND I'M THINKING
GREAT AGAIN AND I'M THINKING WHEN DID YOU THINK AMERICA WAS
WHEN DID YOU THINK AMERICA WAS GREAT.
GREAT. IT CERTAINLY WASN'T WHEN PEOPLE
IT CERTAINLY WASN'T WHEN PEOPLE WERE ENSLAVED.
WERE ENSLAVED. CERTAINLY WASN'T WHEN WOMEN
CERTAINLY WASN'T WHEN WOMEN DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE. CERTAINLY WASN'T WHEN THE LGBT
CERTAINLY WASN'T WHEN THE LGBT COMMUNITY WAS DENIED THE RIGHTS
COMMUNITY WAS DENIED THE RIGHTS TO WHICH IT WAS SDILGTSENTITLED.
TO WHICH IT WAS SDILGTSENTITLED. IT TAKES US BACK TO AN AMERICAN
IT TAKES US BACK TO AN AMERICAN PAST THAT NEVER REALLY IN FACT
PAST THAT NEVER REALLY IN FACT EXISTED.
EXISTED. AMERICA HAS DONE GLATS THINGSUNO
AMERICA HAS DONE GLATS THINGSUNO AND HAS BEEN A LEADER, BUT WE
AND HAS BEEN A LEADER, BUT WE ARE ALWAYS A WORK IN PROGRESS.
ARE ALWAYS A WORK IN PROGRESS. AND LOOKING BACK, MAKE AMERICA
AND LOOKING BACK, MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN IS INCONSISTENT WITH
GREAT AGAIN IS INCONSISTENT WITH WHO WE ARE AT OUR BEST WHEN WE
WHO WE ARE AT OUR BEST WHEN WE LOOK AT THE UNCERTAIN FUTURE,
LOOK AT THE UNCERTAIN FUTURE, EMBRACE IT AND MAKE IT OUR OWN.
EMBRACE IT AND MAKE IT OUR OWN. >> IT IS VERY INTERESTING
>> IT IS VERY INTERESTING HEARING YOU PUT IT THAT WAY.
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